Episode 66

full
Published on:

4th Jun 2025

The Purpose Code, with Jordan Grumet

Hospice Medical Director and author Jordan Grumet shares the profound loss that change the trajectory of his life, addresses common misconceptions about hospice care, defines the “purpose crisis”, "purpose anxiety", and the "purpose paradox", explains the distinction between meaning and purpose and the connection between purpose and legacy, and reveals the lessons that the living can take from the dying.

Transcript
Gary Michels:

Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary

Gary Michels:

Michels, and today we have Jordan Grumet. Jordan Grumet is

Gary Michels:

a hospice medical director and the author of The Purpose Code,

Gary Michels:

How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness and Leave a Lasting

Gary Michels:

Legacy. Welcome to the show.

Jordan Grumet:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for

Jordan Grumet:

the conversation.

Gary Michels:

Absolutely so your life took an unexpected turn

Gary Michels:

after a profound personal loss reshaped your trajectory and led

Gary Michels:

you towards your medical career. Could you share a little bit

Gary Michels:

about your story with us?

Jordan Grumet:

Certainly. I was seven years old when my dad

Jordan Grumet:

died. He died suddenly. He was 40 at the time. He was rounding

Jordan Grumet:

at the hospital. He was an oncologist or cancer doctor, and

Jordan Grumet:

he got a severe headache, had a blood vessel burst in his brain,

Jordan Grumet:

and died pretty quickly thereafter. And being seven

Jordan Grumet:

years old, I saw the world through a very selfish lens. I

Jordan Grumet:

figured if he died, it must be something I did wrong or I

Jordan Grumet:

wasn't good enough, and so I single handedly decided that I

Jordan Grumet:

could solve this tragic loss by just becoming a doctor like he

Jordan Grumet:

did, and that became my sole version of purpose, a big,

Jordan Grumet:

audacious version of purpose in which not only did I save the

Jordan Grumet:

world by helping people, but I could somehow undo this bad

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thing that happened to me when I was a kid. So originally, I

Jordan Grumet:

found a lot of fulfillment in it. This idea that I had

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something that I was supposed to do really engaged me, and so I

Jordan Grumet:

worked really hard. I had a learning disability when I was a

Jordan Grumet:

kid, and I got over that, and I went to high school and college,

Jordan Grumet:

and I was the kid who was always studying while everyone else was

Jordan Grumet:

out having fun. It was my sole version of purpose and identity

Jordan Grumet:

for many years, and it did serve me until I started practicing

Jordan Grumet:

medicine and realized there was a lot I didn't like about it. I

Jordan Grumet:

didn't like the hours, I didn't like the paperwork. I so often

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felt like I wasn't helping people as much as I wanted to.

Jordan Grumet:

And at some point, I had that epiphany that no matter how good

Jordan Grumet:

a doctor I was, A, I wasn't going to save everyone, and B, I

Jordan Grumet:

wasn't going to undo the tragedy. My dad wasn't back. I

Jordan Grumet:

had become a doctor. I had done this big, audacious thing. I was

Jordan Grumet:

supposed to be feeling good, and I realized that I kind of CO

Jordan Grumet:

opted his version of purpose, because I thought it would save

Jordan Grumet:

everything and fix everything, but I wasn't very connected to

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the work like I found a bunch of his notebooks one day as an

Jordan Grumet:

adult, we were cleaning out my mom's addict and I was looking

Jordan Grumet:

at his notebooks and seeing the loving notes he had taken on all

Jordan Grumet:

the biological pathways, And I could just tell by these notes

Jordan Grumet:

how much he loved it, and I had none of that like I didn't enjoy

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it nearly as much. It didn't light me up. And so it was

Jordan Grumet:

really epiphany to realize that even though it felt like a real

Jordan Grumet:

sense of purpose and did fill me up for some point, when I

Jordan Grumet:

actually got there, it didn't.

Gary Michels:

Wow. So you decided to make a jump right

Gary Michels:

from internal medicine to hospice. Where did that come

Gary Michels:

from?

Jordan Grumet:

So I got so burned out in medicine, I

Jordan Grumet:

started looking for ways out. But what the heck am I going to

Jordan Grumet:

do with myself? I had no idea. So instead of throwing the baby

Jordan Grumet:

out with the bath water, I just started getting rid of things I

Jordan Grumet:

didn't like in my medical practice. I didn't like owning

Jordan Grumet:

my own practice, so I got rid of that. I didn't like working in

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nursing homes, so I got rid of that. What of that. When I got

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rid of everything that I didn't like, I was left with one thing

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I loved, which was doing hospice work. About five years into my

Jordan Grumet:

career, I was taking care of a dying patient. We called

Jordan Grumet:

hospice. They came saw the dying patient. I had kind of done

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everything they needed to have done before they even got there.

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So they looked at me and they said, you're really good at

Jordan Grumet:

this. Why don't you come work for us? So I started almost what

Jordan Grumet:

I call a medical side hustle, where I worked very part time

Jordan Grumet:

for a hospice as a medical director. I got a little stipend

Jordan Grumet:

for doing it, and so I had already incorporated that into

Jordan Grumet:

my work life. And as I started subtracting out all I didn't

Jordan Grumet:

like it was the one thing I realized I would do, even if

Jordan Grumet:

someone wasn't paying me for it. And that's how I kind of knew

Jordan Grumet:

that there was this kernel of purpose in that, and that even

Jordan Grumet:

if I decided I didn't want to be a doctor anymore, I still wanted

Jordan Grumet:

to do that.

Gary Michels:

You know, often when you talk about hospice,

Gary Michels:

there's misconceptions people have, and they don't really

Gary Michels:

know. So what are some common misconceptions about hospice

Gary Michels:

care?

Jordan Grumet:

Well, the first thing I always get is, wow, you

Jordan Grumet:

work in hospice that must be hard or that must be depressing.

Jordan Grumet:

And it's funny because I say the exact opposite. There were so

Jordan Grumet:

many things that were hard and depressing about doing general

Jordan Grumet:

internal medicine. Being people's intern is taking care

Jordan Grumet:

of people in the hospital. I actually find hospice really

Jordan Grumet:

uplifting, because all the other doctors have told the poor

Jordan Grumet:

patient, there's nothing you can do. We're done. And then I get

Jordan Grumet:

to walk in and say, whoa, wait, there's tons of things we can

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do. We can help control your symptoms. We can help you die in

Jordan Grumet:

the place you want to die. We can help you see each day as a

Jordan Grumet:

gift up into the moment you die. And so that feels very

Jordan Grumet:

empowering. So the mistake most people think is, when you're

Jordan Grumet:

given a terminal diagnosis, that life ends. But what I've found

Jordan Grumet:

is that even the dying wake up every morning with a plan for

Jordan Grumet:

the day and with the right type of care and hospice care and

Jordan Grumet:

those kind of things, we can help you experience those kind

Jordan Grumet:

of things you want to experience. You can hopefully

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see some of those people you want to see. You can talk to

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those other people. You can do some things that are really

Jordan Grumet:

nurturing and growth oriented, even in your last days. And so.

Jordan Grumet:

Think that's where the mistake most people make is they think

Jordan Grumet:

the moment you get the diagnosis, life ends. And I say,

Jordan Grumet:

No, no, you're kind of living until the moment you die. And so

Jordan Grumet:

we try to make that life as good as possible for however much

Jordan Grumet:

time you have left.

Gary Michels:

So working in hospice care, you spend a lot of

Gary Michels:

time with people who were really reflecting on things about what

Gary Michels:

their mission and purpose has been in life. You argue America

Gary Michels:

is currently undergoing a purpose crisis. Can you explain?

Jordan Grumet:

Certainly. And part of the reason is, I think

Jordan Grumet:

we get purpose wrong. So let's talk about why we get purpose

Jordan Grumet:

wrong. I usually talk about purpose being two different

Jordan Grumet:

things, and one of them is associated with health,

Jordan Grumet:

happiness and longevity. That's what I call little P purpose.

Jordan Grumet:

I'll explain the difference in a moment. And the other is what I

Jordan Grumet:

call big P purpose, which is big audacious purpose, and it

Jordan Grumet:

probably is more associated with anxiety. In fact, studies show

Jordan Grumet:

that up to 91% of people at some point in their life have what's

Jordan Grumet:

called purpose anxiety. They get stressed and anxious and

Jordan Grumet:

frustrated at this idea of, quote, unquote, finding their

Jordan Grumet:

purpose so big P purpose is audacious. It's goal oriented,

Jordan Grumet:

and it's usually really hard to achieve, because in America, we

Jordan Grumet:

say, if you think it, you can do it. So think about becoming a

Jordan Grumet:

billionaire, having a seven figure business, traveling to

Jordan Grumet:

all sorts of great countries, wearing the nice clothes. All

Jordan Grumet:

those kind of things are kind of big P purpose. Little P purpose,

Jordan Grumet:

on the other hand, isn't goal oriented. It's process oriented.

Jordan Grumet:

So it's very abundant. It's like doing what lights you up. And so

Jordan Grumet:

if you think about it, there are a million things you could do

Jordan Grumet:

that you really love to do, and there's no way to fail. You

Jordan Grumet:

start doing something you don't like doing it, just do something

Jordan Grumet:

else. So why are we having a purpose crisis in America?

Jordan Grumet:

Because every influence out there is trying to tell us to

Jordan Grumet:

grasp on to big purpose. What do I mean by that? Well, if you go

Jordan Grumet:

onto Tiktok or Instagram, what you're seeing is people who are,

Jordan Grumet:

you know, billionaires and traveling to every country and

Jordan Grumet:

wearing the nice clothes and having the six pack abs, or if

Jordan Grumet:

you look at things like television and marketing,

Jordan Grumet:

they're showing us images of what the good life looks like,

Jordan Grumet:

and often those things are really hard to achieve. Like,

Jordan Grumet:

not everyone can have six pack abs, not everyone can become a

Jordan Grumet:

billionaire. In fact, most people can't. In fact, you have

Jordan Grumet:

to be the right person at the right time, saying the right

Jordan Grumet:

things, with the right genetics and a bunch of luck to get

Jordan Grumet:

there. And so what happens to most people who go after big P

Jordan Grumet:

purpose? They fail. And so the world is trying to get us to co

Jordan Grumet:

opt that version of purpose. Why? Because influencers want to

Jordan Grumet:

sell things, and they want you to follow them. Advertisers want

Jordan Grumet:

you to buy their products. So if they can just sell you this big,

Jordan Grumet:

audacious version of purpose, they can get you to buy their

Jordan Grumet:

thing. But that version of purpose is making us feel

Jordan Grumet:

horrible, and that's why there's a crisis, because everybody is

Jordan Grumet:

telling us what to be, and usually those things aren't

Jordan Grumet:

particularly healthy for us, and they don't particularly make us

Jordan Grumet:

happy. Big P purpose is always bad because it's goal oriented.

Jordan Grumet:

And so here's the problem with big P purpose, we make these

Jordan Grumet:

huge, big, audacious goals, and often it causes us to do things

Jordan Grumet:

we don't enjoy the process of doing. Let me talk about

Jordan Grumet:

podcasting. I love podcasting. I'm a podcaster. When I podcast,

Jordan Grumet:

it is little P purpose for me, which means I love doing it. I

Jordan Grumet:

get in front of the mic and I interview someone, and that hour

Jordan Grumet:

is the best time of my life, even if no one ever hears that

Jordan Grumet:

episode. It was so worth it because I enjoyed the process of

Jordan Grumet:

doing it. But I could decide that I want a million downloads

Jordan Grumet:

a month, and that could be my big audacious goal. But here's

Jordan Grumet:

the problem, in order to get there, I'm going to have to do

Jordan Grumet:

some work, and part of that work is going to be things I really

Jordan Grumet:

hate doing, like I don't like making Tiktok reels, I don't

Jordan Grumet:

like being on Instagram, but if I really want to get those

Jordan Grumet:

million views, I'm going to have to do that. So what I'm going to

Jordan Grumet:

do is I'm going to spend all my time doing things I don't like

Jordan Grumet:

85 90% of my time so that I can reach that goal, which I'm happy

Jordan Grumet:

with for about 5% of the time. And then I habituate back to my

Jordan Grumet:

regular level of happiness. And then I gotta double down and go

Jordan Grumet:

after 2 million and then I'm back to doing things I don't

Jordan Grumet:

like doing. You can have big, audacious goals, but when you

Jordan Grumet:

pursue little P purpose, you are goal agnostic. What does that

Jordan Grumet:

mean? So I can love podcasting, and I can decide that a million

Jordan Grumet:

downloads a month is my big, audacious goal, but it's still

Jordan Grumet:

little P purpose, because guess what? If I get there, great. If

Jordan Grumet:

I don't get there, great, because I'm still doing

Jordan Grumet:

something I love doing. It only becomes big P purpose when you

Jordan Grumet:

start changing what you're doing to things you don't enjoy the

Jordan Grumet:

process of doing, and that's where we go wrong.

Gary Michels:

But is there a middle ground a little bit?

Jordan Grumet:

Here's where I run into problems. So I am a

Jordan Grumet:

doctor, right? Which means I've been surrounded by achievement

Jordan Grumet:

junkies my whole life. And so a lot of people make that

Jordan Grumet:

argument. It's like, well, I like achieving. I want to change

Jordan Grumet:

the world. What's wrong with a little big, audacious purpose,

Jordan Grumet:

like, I want to be driven to do these big, awesome things. I

Jordan Grumet:

mean, that's how we kill it, right? You do all these big

Jordan Grumet:

dozen things. Here's what I generally found, and it actually

Jordan Grumet:

has to do with the difference between meaning and purpose. And

Jordan Grumet:

so I think happiness is meaning and purpose. You need both. A

Jordan Grumet:

lot of people look at me and go, well. Are crazy. Meaning and

Jordan Grumet:

purpose are the same thing. Here's where I think they're

Jordan Grumet:

different and why it's important. Meaning is about our

Jordan Grumet:

past and it's all about our thoughts. It's the stories we

Jordan Grumet:

tell ourselves about ourselves, and it's generally a journey to

Jordan Grumet:

enough. What I mean is happy people tend to tell themselves

Jordan Grumet:

heroic stories about their past. They see the past, they realize

Jordan Grumet:

there was hardship and trauma and difficulty, but they were

Jordan Grumet:

able to get through it, and that's why they are where they

Jordan Grumet:

are today. And then they look at the present future and say,

Jordan Grumet:

Well, I was able to get through in the past, so I'm going to do

Jordan Grumet:

well in the present future. They feel like they're enough on the

Jordan Grumet:

inside, and so they'll continue to be enough. Unhappy. People

Jordan Grumet:

tend to tell themselves a victim story about the past. The story

Jordan Grumet:

they tell about their past is, I had these traumas, I had these

Jordan Grumet:

problems, and I was thwarted, and so when you get to the

Jordan Grumet:

present, they still feel thwarted, and they feel they'll

Jordan Grumet:

be thwarted in the present and future. So they never feel like

Jordan Grumet:

they made it to enough. Purpose is very different from meaning.

Jordan Grumet:

It's not about your thoughts and it's not about your past. It's

Jordan Grumet:

about your present and future, and it's all about actions. It's

Jordan Grumet:

doing the things that light us up. Here's where people go

Jordan Grumet:

wrong. They go wrong when they don't have a good sense of

Jordan Grumet:

meaning and they don't feel enough. And so instead of going

Jordan Grumet:

back and dealing with that not feeling enough, they try to

Jordan Grumet:

purpose their way to enough, or purpose their way to happiness.

Jordan Grumet:

How do they do that? They set a bunch of big, audacious goals,

Jordan Grumet:

and they convince themselves, if they just reach those goals,

Jordan Grumet:

they're going to be happy. I call this the achievement

Jordan Grumet:

treadmill. It's those people who keep on running on the

Jordan Grumet:

treadmill, getting achievement after achievement, and they

Jordan Grumet:

still think they're going to make them happy, and they don't,

Jordan Grumet:

and they have to go to the next big, audacious goal to get

Jordan Grumet:

there. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. These are two people who've

Jordan Grumet:

achieved almost everything. They've made almost all the

Jordan Grumet:

money there is to make in the world, and both of them have

Jordan Grumet:

looked mostly miserable most of their lives. The reason is, I

Jordan Grumet:

believe, is they have an issue of meaning. Steve Jobs was

Jordan Grumet:

adopted, and it's been well documented that he never came to

Jordan Grumet:

terms with this idea, that he never felt he was enough through

Jordan Grumet:

his adoption issues, and he kept on trying to prove himself

Jordan Grumet:

through creating all this amazing stuff. Elon Musk

Jordan Grumet:

suffered issues with his dad and got teased as a kid. I think a

Jordan Grumet:

lot of this is a meaning problem. So what's wrong with

Jordan Grumet:

the big, audacious goals and pushing ourselves to achieve

Jordan Grumet:

more? I think we're trying to prove our enoughness, and you

Jordan Grumet:

could be as successful as Elon Musk and Steve Jobs, and it

Jordan Grumet:

still won't make you actually happy. It'll just make you

Jordan Grumet:

double down and want to reach the next thing. And so that's my

Jordan Grumet:

problem, being two achievement and big P purpose oriented is a

Jordan Grumet:

lot of people are trying to prove their enoughness with it,

Jordan Grumet:

and it just doesn't work. The way you prove you're enough is

Jordan Grumet:

to go back and deal with meaning, not necessarily. Can't

Jordan Grumet:

purpose your way there. And so I think you set yourself up to be

Jordan Grumet:

a little bit unhappy as long as you're enjoying what you're

Jordan Grumet:

doing, that's fine.

Gary Michels:

I know that purpose is a big part of

Gary Michels:

hospice. So you say that up to 91% of us are impacted by

Gary Michels:

purpose anxiety. Where did that number come from, and what led

Gary Michels:

to 91%?

Jordan Grumet:

So Larissa Rainey is a researcher who basically

Jordan Grumet:

did one of the Sentinel papers on purpose anxiety. Back, I

Jordan Grumet:

think it was in 2012 or maybe 2014 and so she was the one who

Jordan Grumet:

conducted the research that showed that up to 91% of people

Jordan Grumet:

at some point in their life have had purpose anxiety. So why

Jordan Grumet:

purpose anxiety? Because most people are trying to find their

Jordan Grumet:

purpose, and you don't really find purpose. You build it, but

Jordan Grumet:

you do have to decide what to build purpose around. And most

Jordan Grumet:

of us, because of social media, because of society, we're trying

Jordan Grumet:

to build purpose around these really big, goal oriented,

Jordan Grumet:

difficult things to pursue. And so we feel lots of anxiety,

Jordan Grumet:

because a lot of times we set the goal so high we can't reach

Jordan Grumet:

it, and a lot of times we find ourselves doing things we don't

Gary Michels:

What is the purpose paradox?

Gary Michels:

like in service of these goals that we either do or don't meet,

Jordan Grumet:

Well, that's the paradox. So if you look at the

Jordan Grumet:

data, pursuing a version of purpose in life, if you look at

Jordan Grumet:

but you kind of lost already if you don't enjoy what you're

Jordan Grumet:

all the studies, is associated with health, happiness and

Jordan Grumet:

longevity, I mean, you do so much better if you have a sense

Jordan Grumet:

doing in service of that goal, at least on a regular basis. And

Jordan Grumet:

of purpose in your life. And there are tons of studies that

Jordan Grumet:

show this, but then there are other other studies that show

Jordan Grumet:

so that's why there's so much purpose anxiety, is because a

Jordan Grumet:

that up to 91% of people have purpose anxieties. The question

Jordan Grumet:

is, how can it be like both the most nourishing thing that gives

Jordan Grumet:

lot of times, really, all these forces are pushing us to do

Jordan Grumet:

us the health, happiness and longevity, but also the most

Jordan Grumet:

frustrating thing that gives us all the anxiety? What I believe

Jordan Grumet:

stuff that probably doesn't light us up, that probably isn't

Jordan Grumet:

is we get purpose wrong. We think it's only one thing, but

Jordan Grumet:

it's actually two things, and one of those things is healthy

Jordan Grumet:

unique to us, but it's some version of either what society

Jordan Grumet:

for you, and one of them isn't. That's that differentiation.

Jordan Grumet:

Little P purpose is probably what's associated with all those

Jordan Grumet:

is trying to tell us or what society is trying to sell us.

Jordan Grumet:

good things, and big P purpose is probably what's more

Jordan Grumet:

associated with the anxiety and stress.

Gary Michels:

I got it. Now, how are purpose and legacy

Gary Michels:

connected? Because I know when you're with these people in

Gary Michels:

hospice, I'm sure things come up, what they want to leave

Gary Michels:

behind, not just money wise, but memories and thoughts and

Gary Michels:

relationships. How are they connected?

Jordan Grumet:

Well, here's the thing, most people think the way

Jordan Grumet:

to have impact in legacy is big P big audacious purposes, like

Jordan Grumet:

I'm going to, you know, solve cancer, or I'm going to travel

Jordan Grumet:

to Mars, or I'm going to become a president, and those are the

Jordan Grumet:

things that are going to give them this lasting impact and

Jordan Grumet:

legacy. I actually argue the exact opposite. It's little

Jordan Grumet:

people purpose doing things that light us up, that actually

Jordan Grumet:

connect us to other people. I'm not worried about a financial

Jordan Grumet:

legacy. That's just a financial plan. I'm looking at leaving a

Jordan Grumet:

part of yourself that exists even after you've left this

Jordan Grumet:

world. So I always give the example, actually, of my

Jordan Grumet:

maternal grandfather. My maternal grandfather was born

Jordan Grumet:

and lived throughout the mid 1900s he, in fact, died in the

Jordan Grumet:

1960s so I was born in 1973 I never even met him, but he had a

Jordan Grumet:

version of purpose that was very much little P purpose. He loved

Jordan Grumet:

math, not because he could make a living at it, not because it

Jordan Grumet:

was going to change the world. He loved it, because he just

Jordan Grumet:

loved it. So back in the 1950s when my mom was a little girl,

Jordan Grumet:

she'd sit on his lab and he would show her all his

Jordan Grumet:

spreadsheets where he was writing in all the numbers in

Jordan Grumet:

the boxes, and he was lit up and excited about this. So my mom

Jordan Grumet:

did what kids do is she tried on that identity. She's like, Well,

Jordan Grumet:

my dad loves this. Maybe this fits me. She found it did, and

Jordan Grumet:

she eventually became a CPA just like him. Here's where the magic

Jordan Grumet:

comes in. When I was a little kid, I had a learning disability

Jordan Grumet:

and couldn't read. And in fact, while all my friends were on

Jordan Grumet:

their basic readers, I was pretty much coloring with a

Jordan Grumet:

crayon in a drawing book. Basically, I wasn't making any

Jordan Grumet:

headway. I would have thought I was lost, except I was really

Jordan Grumet:

good at math. In fact, I was at the top of my class at math,

Jordan Grumet:

because, like my mother, I had taken on some of that identity

Jordan Grumet:

because I saw that she loved it. It was her purpose. I thought

Jordan Grumet:

this is something I could do too. I eventually got over my

Jordan Grumet:

learning disability. I became a doctor, and in my early days as

Jordan Grumet:

a doctor, I had a patient who came into the hospital, a young

Jordan Grumet:

guy who kept on getting admitted almost near death with

Jordan Grumet:

dehydration. Because I loved math, I happened to notice a

Jordan Grumet:

connection between two of his lab results, and we diagnosed

Jordan Grumet:

him with a rare disease. That rare disease we treated with a

Jordan Grumet:

simple medicine. And guess what happened? He was a pastor at a

Jordan Grumet:

church, and he took in homeless kids and would give them

Jordan Grumet:

shelter, connect them to social services, all those kind of

Jordan Grumet:

things. So let's think about this, my maternal grandfather,

Jordan Grumet:

who died in the 1960s because of his love of math, like a pebble

Jordan Grumet:

dropped in the ocean, it displaced a touch of water, and

Jordan Grumet:

that water formed waves that added to other waves at times to

Jordan Grumet:

become big and mighty and got smaller at other times and

Jordan Grumet:

dissipated. But over 60 years, it's still landing on beaches

Jordan Grumet:

hundreds of miles away. His life had impact. It had legacy. Part

Jordan Grumet:

of him still exists because of what he loved, and I think

Jordan Grumet:

that's a lot more attainable for people than to worry about all

Jordan Grumet:

these big, audacious things they're gonna do, which they may

Jordan Grumet:

or may not succeed at.

Gary Michels:

What does legacy mean to you in general?

Jordan Grumet:

I think it's the piece of you that you leave

Jordan Grumet:

behind once you're gone, and so there's a touch of that that's

Jordan Grumet:

financial, right? You leave money, and that helps your kids

Jordan Grumet:

and grandkids, etc. But a lot of it are those things you loved

Jordan Grumet:

that you modeled for your family and touched their lives, and you

Jordan Grumet:

gave them permission to maybe seek out the same things, maybe

Jordan Grumet:

to do their own things. But we see this all the time, like in a

Jordan Grumet:

grandchild or a great grandchild, someone who has a

Jordan Grumet:

love of music that their great grandparent had, someone who

Jordan Grumet:

walks or has the mannerisms that their grandfather had. These are

Jordan Grumet:

parts of our legacy. It's the part of us that we pass along.

Jordan Grumet:

And the beautiful thing about that is your money will

Jordan Grumet:

disappear, and even the fantastic achievements you did

Jordan Grumet:

will probably disappear, but won't. What won't disappear

Jordan Grumet:

those pieces of yourself that you pass on. And so I think

Jordan Grumet:

that's legacy.

Gary Michels:

Now you've spoken with countless patients on their

Gary Michels:

deathbeds about their lives, their regrets, and what they

Gary Michels:

hope their legacy will be. Are there any stories in particular

Gary Michels:

that you felt were impactful to you or might be impactful to our

Gary Michels:

listeners that you'd like to share?

Jordan Grumet:

There are so many, it's hard to separate. And

Jordan Grumet:

what binds them all is people who either did the things that

Jordan Grumet:

were important to them, so they kind of died peacefully, or the

Jordan Grumet:

people who never addressed those things. And so I had to

Jordan Grumet:

reconcile that at the end of life. And so one story I

Jordan Grumet:

actually tell about so I just wrote a book called The purpose

Jordan Grumet:

code. It's all about purpose. But in my first book taking

Jordan Grumet:

stock, I actually tell a story which still is very profound to

Jordan Grumet:

me today. I took care of a patient who back when he was in

Jordan Grumet:

his 20s, he had this dream, and the dream was to hike Mount

Jordan Grumet:

Everest. He wanted to climb Mount Everest, and he was in the

Jordan Grumet:

middle of a corporate career, and he was doing really, really

Jordan Grumet:

well, and he was moving up. And he decided in his early 20s to

Jordan Grumet:

take a year off, which everyone told him he shouldn't do, to

Jordan Grumet:

train and then to go climb Mount Everest. And so he did that. He

Jordan Grumet:

trained. He went to climb Mount Everest. They made it past base

Jordan Grumet:

camp. The weather change. First. He eventually had to come back

Jordan Grumet:

down. They never made it to the top. He ran out of time. He went

Jordan Grumet:

back to working. I met him in his 40s when he was dying of

Jordan Grumet:

leukemia, and all he wanted to talk about was his time on Mount

Jordan Grumet:

Everest. All he wanted to talk about was what it felt like to

Jordan Grumet:

be out there trying to climb this fantastic mountain. He

Jordan Grumet:

didn't complain that he failed, right? He ultimately didn't make

Jordan Grumet:

it. But what he really regaled us with was this idea that he

Jordan Grumet:

had the courage to do this thing that was deeply important to him

Jordan Grumet:

and that really had an impact on me. Doesn't matter if you

Jordan Grumet:

succeed or fail, but one day, you're going to die and you're

Jordan Grumet:

going to look back and say, did I do those things that were

Jordan Grumet:

deeply important to me, or did I put them off? So he failed the

Jordan Grumet:

big, audacious goal of getting to the top, but he loved the

Jordan Grumet:

process, and that's all that mattered, right, right? And so

Jordan Grumet:

he could have, back in his 20s, he could have said, You know

Jordan Grumet:

what, everyone's right, I should stick to my career. I'm gonna

Jordan Grumet:

keep moving up. I'll get to it later. Well, the poor guy died

Jordan Grumet:

in his 40s. There never may have been a later.

Gary Michels:

What is a hospice life review and how can it help

Gary Michels:

anyone at any age live a more purposeful life?

Jordan Grumet:

So, a hospice life review is something we do

Jordan Grumet:

with patients after they come on hospice, and we get them

Jordan Grumet:

comfortable, and we make sure they're dying the place they

Jordan Grumet:

want to, whether that's a nursing home or the hospital at

Jordan Grumet:

home. A lot of times a doctor or social worker or nurse or a

Jordan Grumet:

chaplain will do something called a life review. It's a

Jordan Grumet:

series of structured questions where we ask them about their

Jordan Grumet:

lives, what were the most important moments, what were

Jordan Grumet:

their biggest successes, what were their biggest failures? And

Jordan Grumet:

the one I specifically want to focus on is, what are their

Jordan Grumet:

regrets? And so this is an attempt to help reconcile their

Jordan Grumet:

life, even though they don't have the agency to change things

Jordan Grumet:

anymore, right? They're not going to go back and climb Mount

Jordan Grumet:

Everest if they didn't do it, they didn't do it. But here's

Jordan Grumet:

where the magic comes in. What if we take that knowledge and

Jordan Grumet:

bring it to young people and other people who aren't dying?

Jordan Grumet:

What if we ask them that big question, if you found out you

Jordan Grumet:

were going to die next week, what would you regret that you

Jordan Grumet:

never had the energy, courage or time to do? And once you figure

Jordan Grumet:

out what those regrets are, let's turn those into what I

Jordan Grumet:

call purpose anchors. Those are inklings of something that could

Jordan Grumet:

be purposeful. And then let's build a life of purpose around

Jordan Grumet:

them. Let me give you a great example. I came to the

Jordan Grumet:

conclusion about 10 years ago that if I didn't traditionally

Jordan Grumet:

publish a book and I died, I would always regret that I never

Jordan Grumet:

tried. And so for me, that was something I could turn from a

Jordan Grumet:

regret into a purpose anchor. And so I started building a life

Jordan Grumet:

of purpose around that, and eventually wrote my first book,

Jordan Grumet:

taking stock. And so I think this idea of using regrets to

Jordan Grumet:

our benefit is something that we all should be doing. Take a

Jordan Grumet:

lesson from the dying. Let's start thinking about it a lot

Jordan Grumet:

earlier, though.

Gary Michels:

Yeah, I love that. What are a few tactical tips for

Gary Michels:

setting up a lasting, positive legacy?

Jordan Grumet:

The tips are to start thinking about purpose

Jordan Grumet:

now. Little P purpose, what you like the process of doing, and

Jordan Grumet:

start building a life around it. And so what I always get all the

Jordan Grumet:

time, as people say to me, Well, that's easy, you know, just find

Jordan Grumet:

your purpose. And they say, but I don't know how to find my

Jordan Grumet:

purpose. I've been trying forever. And so what I always

Jordan Grumet:

say is, you don't find your purpose. You build it. But it is

Jordan Grumet:

true, you need these Inklings, these beckonings, these purpose

Jordan Grumet:

anchors, to start building a life of purpose around. So it is

Jordan Grumet:

true, there's some ways to start thinking about purpose anchors.

Jordan Grumet:

We just talked about one, which is the life review and the

Jordan Grumet:

regret question, that's a great way to start think about what

Jordan Grumet:

you'd regret if you were dying. And let's turn that into a

Jordan Grumet:

purpose anchor, another easy way. I won't go through all of

Jordan Grumet:

them, but another easy way to start thinking about purpose

Jordan Grumet:

anchors. Think about your joys of childhood like, what did you

Jordan Grumet:

love when you were a kid? A lot of times, as we get older, we

Jordan Grumet:

start focusing on school and we drop all those things that feel

Jordan Grumet:

purposeful to us. So what were the posters? What were the

Jordan Grumet:

drawings? What were the metals you had in your childhood room?

Jordan Grumet:

Could those be some purpose anchors last but not least, and

Jordan Grumet:

I described this with my career. If you subtracted everything you

Jordan Grumet:

didn't like about your career, what would be left when I

Jordan Grumet:

subtracted everything I didn't like about being a doctor, I

Jordan Grumet:

found a purpose anchor, which was hospice work. And so those

Jordan Grumet:

are some real constructive ways to start building purpose

Jordan Grumet:

anchors so that you can then start creating the life you want

Jordan Grumet:

to live full of purpose.

Gary Michels:

Couple of last questions for you; what legacy

Gary Michels:

do you hope to leave behind for your work and the patients that

Gary Michels:

you serve?

Jordan Grumet:

I'll tell you that that's an interesting

Jordan Grumet:

question, because I don't really plan to leave a legacy in the

Jordan Grumet:

people I serve. In fact, I don't even want them to know my name.

Jordan Grumet:

I want to be behind the scenes, helping the nurses and chaplains

Jordan Grumet:

and so social workers take care of them. So my job as a hospice

Jordan Grumet:

doctor is actually really easy. It's the nurses, the chaplains,

Jordan Grumet:

the social workers and the certified nursing assistants who

Jordan Grumet:

are doing all the difficult, hands on care. So the legacy

Jordan Grumet:

through hospice is to pretty much say, Look, everyone asks

Jordan Grumet:

me, how do I have a good death? I mean, I get that all the time,

Jordan Grumet:

especially young people, like you're a hospice doctor, you

Jordan Grumet:

know, how do I assure that I have a good death? And I always

Jordan Grumet:

tell people, you tend to die the way you live. And so if you

Jordan Grumet:

lived a good, happy life, you're gonna have a good, happy death.

Jordan Grumet:

And if you lived an anxiety filled unhappy life, you're

Jordan Grumet:

probably gonna have an unhappy death. So the way to have a good

Jordan Grumet:

death is to have a good life. And so the way to have. A good

Jordan Grumet:

life is to start thinking about these really important things

Jordan Grumet:

now, and that gets back to purpose. The legacy for the kids

Jordan Grumet:

is much easier, right? So for my kids, my legacy is to model a

Jordan Grumet:

deeply engaged adult who's pursuing really purposeful

Jordan Grumet:

activities, because I want them to have that model so they can

Jordan Grumet:

go and pursue their own purposeful, light filled life.

Jordan Grumet:

And so that's really the legacy I want for them. Is I want them

Jordan Grumet:

to see me so deeply engaged in my life that they build a life

Jordan Grumet:

exactly the same for themselves, so they feel all that kind of

Jordan Grumet:

same joy and fulfillment that I've spent, you know, a good 50

Jordan Grumet:

years trying to get to.

Gary Michels:

Awesome. I love it. So if someone wanted to get

Gary Michels:

in touch with you, get your book, have you help them in any

Gary Michels:

part of their lives, how would they reach you?

Jordan Grumet:

So the best way is to go to JordanGrumet.com

Jordan Grumet:

that's J O R, D, A N, G, R, U, m, e, t.com, there you can see

Jordan Grumet:

links to both of my books Taking Stock and The Purpose Code, as

Jordan Grumet:

well as all the places I create content. The two main ones right

Jordan Grumet:

now are the earned and invest podcast as well as the purpose

Jordan Grumet:

code, sub stack. You can get all of that at JordanGrumet.com.

Gary Michels:

Awesome. Well, I thank you for spending time with

Gary Michels:

us today. It was a great discussion, and it got me

Gary Michels:

thinking. Thank you so much.

Jordan Grumet:

Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.

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About the Podcast

Let's Talk Legacy
Presented by Southwestern Legacy Insurance Group
What does it mean to build and maintain a legacy, either in business, or for your loved ones? What tools and resources are available to help? Join the discussion along with exciting guests and real listeners just like you, to tackle the answers to these questions, and learn how to grow today, for a better tomorrow.



Southwestern/Great American, Inc., dba Southwestern Family of Companies, for itself and its related entities and their assigns, reserves and retains all rights to their copyrighted materials and trademarks contained in this podcast. Southwestern Legacy Insurance Group is an affiliate of Family First Life.
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