The Purpose Code, with Jordan Grumet
Hospice Medical Director and author Jordan Grumet shares the profound loss that change the trajectory of his life, addresses common misconceptions about hospice care, defines the “purpose crisis”, "purpose anxiety", and the "purpose paradox", explains the distinction between meaning and purpose and the connection between purpose and legacy, and reveals the lessons that the living can take from the dying.
Transcript
Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host, Gary
Gary Michels:Michels, and today we have Jordan Grumet. Jordan Grumet is
Gary Michels:a hospice medical director and the author of The Purpose Code,
Gary Michels:How to Unlock Meaning, Maximize Happiness and Leave a Lasting
Gary Michels:Legacy. Welcome to the show.
Jordan Grumet:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for
Jordan Grumet:the conversation.
Gary Michels:Absolutely so your life took an unexpected turn
Gary Michels:after a profound personal loss reshaped your trajectory and led
Gary Michels:you towards your medical career. Could you share a little bit
Gary Michels:about your story with us?
Jordan Grumet:Certainly. I was seven years old when my dad
Jordan Grumet:died. He died suddenly. He was 40 at the time. He was rounding
Jordan Grumet:at the hospital. He was an oncologist or cancer doctor, and
Jordan Grumet:he got a severe headache, had a blood vessel burst in his brain,
Jordan Grumet:and died pretty quickly thereafter. And being seven
Jordan Grumet:years old, I saw the world through a very selfish lens. I
Jordan Grumet:figured if he died, it must be something I did wrong or I
Jordan Grumet:wasn't good enough, and so I single handedly decided that I
Jordan Grumet:could solve this tragic loss by just becoming a doctor like he
Jordan Grumet:did, and that became my sole version of purpose, a big,
Jordan Grumet:audacious version of purpose in which not only did I save the
Jordan Grumet:world by helping people, but I could somehow undo this bad
Jordan Grumet:thing that happened to me when I was a kid. So originally, I
Jordan Grumet:found a lot of fulfillment in it. This idea that I had
Jordan Grumet:something that I was supposed to do really engaged me, and so I
Jordan Grumet:worked really hard. I had a learning disability when I was a
Jordan Grumet:kid, and I got over that, and I went to high school and college,
Jordan Grumet:and I was the kid who was always studying while everyone else was
Jordan Grumet:out having fun. It was my sole version of purpose and identity
Jordan Grumet:for many years, and it did serve me until I started practicing
Jordan Grumet:medicine and realized there was a lot I didn't like about it. I
Jordan Grumet:didn't like the hours, I didn't like the paperwork. I so often
Jordan Grumet:felt like I wasn't helping people as much as I wanted to.
Jordan Grumet:And at some point, I had that epiphany that no matter how good
Jordan Grumet:a doctor I was, A, I wasn't going to save everyone, and B, I
Jordan Grumet:wasn't going to undo the tragedy. My dad wasn't back. I
Jordan Grumet:had become a doctor. I had done this big, audacious thing. I was
Jordan Grumet:supposed to be feeling good, and I realized that I kind of CO
Jordan Grumet:opted his version of purpose, because I thought it would save
Jordan Grumet:everything and fix everything, but I wasn't very connected to
Jordan Grumet:the work like I found a bunch of his notebooks one day as an
Jordan Grumet:adult, we were cleaning out my mom's addict and I was looking
Jordan Grumet:at his notebooks and seeing the loving notes he had taken on all
Jordan Grumet:the biological pathways, And I could just tell by these notes
Jordan Grumet:how much he loved it, and I had none of that like I didn't enjoy
Jordan Grumet:it nearly as much. It didn't light me up. And so it was
Jordan Grumet:really epiphany to realize that even though it felt like a real
Jordan Grumet:sense of purpose and did fill me up for some point, when I
Jordan Grumet:actually got there, it didn't.
Gary Michels:Wow. So you decided to make a jump right
Gary Michels:from internal medicine to hospice. Where did that come
Gary Michels:from?
Jordan Grumet:So I got so burned out in medicine, I
Jordan Grumet:started looking for ways out. But what the heck am I going to
Jordan Grumet:do with myself? I had no idea. So instead of throwing the baby
Jordan Grumet:out with the bath water, I just started getting rid of things I
Jordan Grumet:didn't like in my medical practice. I didn't like owning
Jordan Grumet:my own practice, so I got rid of that. I didn't like working in
Jordan Grumet:nursing homes, so I got rid of that. What of that. When I got
Jordan Grumet:rid of everything that I didn't like, I was left with one thing
Jordan Grumet:I loved, which was doing hospice work. About five years into my
Jordan Grumet:career, I was taking care of a dying patient. We called
Jordan Grumet:hospice. They came saw the dying patient. I had kind of done
Jordan Grumet:everything they needed to have done before they even got there.
Jordan Grumet:So they looked at me and they said, you're really good at
Jordan Grumet:this. Why don't you come work for us? So I started almost what
Jordan Grumet:I call a medical side hustle, where I worked very part time
Jordan Grumet:for a hospice as a medical director. I got a little stipend
Jordan Grumet:for doing it, and so I had already incorporated that into
Jordan Grumet:my work life. And as I started subtracting out all I didn't
Jordan Grumet:like it was the one thing I realized I would do, even if
Jordan Grumet:someone wasn't paying me for it. And that's how I kind of knew
Jordan Grumet:that there was this kernel of purpose in that, and that even
Jordan Grumet:if I decided I didn't want to be a doctor anymore, I still wanted
Jordan Grumet:to do that.
Gary Michels:You know, often when you talk about hospice,
Gary Michels:there's misconceptions people have, and they don't really
Gary Michels:know. So what are some common misconceptions about hospice
Gary Michels:care?
Jordan Grumet:Well, the first thing I always get is, wow, you
Jordan Grumet:work in hospice that must be hard or that must be depressing.
Jordan Grumet:And it's funny because I say the exact opposite. There were so
Jordan Grumet:many things that were hard and depressing about doing general
Jordan Grumet:internal medicine. Being people's intern is taking care
Jordan Grumet:of people in the hospital. I actually find hospice really
Jordan Grumet:uplifting, because all the other doctors have told the poor
Jordan Grumet:patient, there's nothing you can do. We're done. And then I get
Jordan Grumet:to walk in and say, whoa, wait, there's tons of things we can
Jordan Grumet:do. We can help control your symptoms. We can help you die in
Jordan Grumet:the place you want to die. We can help you see each day as a
Jordan Grumet:gift up into the moment you die. And so that feels very
Jordan Grumet:empowering. So the mistake most people think is, when you're
Jordan Grumet:given a terminal diagnosis, that life ends. But what I've found
Jordan Grumet:is that even the dying wake up every morning with a plan for
Jordan Grumet:the day and with the right type of care and hospice care and
Jordan Grumet:those kind of things, we can help you experience those kind
Jordan Grumet:of things you want to experience. You can hopefully
Jordan Grumet:see some of those people you want to see. You can talk to
Jordan Grumet:those other people. You can do some things that are really
Jordan Grumet:nurturing and growth oriented, even in your last days. And so.
Jordan Grumet:Think that's where the mistake most people make is they think
Jordan Grumet:the moment you get the diagnosis, life ends. And I say,
Jordan Grumet:No, no, you're kind of living until the moment you die. And so
Jordan Grumet:we try to make that life as good as possible for however much
Jordan Grumet:time you have left.
Gary Michels:So working in hospice care, you spend a lot of
Gary Michels:time with people who were really reflecting on things about what
Gary Michels:their mission and purpose has been in life. You argue America
Gary Michels:is currently undergoing a purpose crisis. Can you explain?
Jordan Grumet:Certainly. And part of the reason is, I think
Jordan Grumet:we get purpose wrong. So let's talk about why we get purpose
Jordan Grumet:wrong. I usually talk about purpose being two different
Jordan Grumet:things, and one of them is associated with health,
Jordan Grumet:happiness and longevity. That's what I call little P purpose.
Jordan Grumet:I'll explain the difference in a moment. And the other is what I
Jordan Grumet:call big P purpose, which is big audacious purpose, and it
Jordan Grumet:probably is more associated with anxiety. In fact, studies show
Jordan Grumet:that up to 91% of people at some point in their life have what's
Jordan Grumet:called purpose anxiety. They get stressed and anxious and
Jordan Grumet:frustrated at this idea of, quote, unquote, finding their
Jordan Grumet:purpose so big P purpose is audacious. It's goal oriented,
Jordan Grumet:and it's usually really hard to achieve, because in America, we
Jordan Grumet:say, if you think it, you can do it. So think about becoming a
Jordan Grumet:billionaire, having a seven figure business, traveling to
Jordan Grumet:all sorts of great countries, wearing the nice clothes. All
Jordan Grumet:those kind of things are kind of big P purpose. Little P purpose,
Jordan Grumet:on the other hand, isn't goal oriented. It's process oriented.
Jordan Grumet:So it's very abundant. It's like doing what lights you up. And so
Jordan Grumet:if you think about it, there are a million things you could do
Jordan Grumet:that you really love to do, and there's no way to fail. You
Jordan Grumet:start doing something you don't like doing it, just do something
Jordan Grumet:else. So why are we having a purpose crisis in America?
Jordan Grumet:Because every influence out there is trying to tell us to
Jordan Grumet:grasp on to big purpose. What do I mean by that? Well, if you go
Jordan Grumet:onto Tiktok or Instagram, what you're seeing is people who are,
Jordan Grumet:you know, billionaires and traveling to every country and
Jordan Grumet:wearing the nice clothes and having the six pack abs, or if
Jordan Grumet:you look at things like television and marketing,
Jordan Grumet:they're showing us images of what the good life looks like,
Jordan Grumet:and often those things are really hard to achieve. Like,
Jordan Grumet:not everyone can have six pack abs, not everyone can become a
Jordan Grumet:billionaire. In fact, most people can't. In fact, you have
Jordan Grumet:to be the right person at the right time, saying the right
Jordan Grumet:things, with the right genetics and a bunch of luck to get
Jordan Grumet:there. And so what happens to most people who go after big P
Jordan Grumet:purpose? They fail. And so the world is trying to get us to co
Jordan Grumet:opt that version of purpose. Why? Because influencers want to
Jordan Grumet:sell things, and they want you to follow them. Advertisers want
Jordan Grumet:you to buy their products. So if they can just sell you this big,
Jordan Grumet:audacious version of purpose, they can get you to buy their
Jordan Grumet:thing. But that version of purpose is making us feel
Jordan Grumet:horrible, and that's why there's a crisis, because everybody is
Jordan Grumet:telling us what to be, and usually those things aren't
Jordan Grumet:particularly healthy for us, and they don't particularly make us
Jordan Grumet:happy. Big P purpose is always bad because it's goal oriented.
Jordan Grumet:And so here's the problem with big P purpose, we make these
Jordan Grumet:huge, big, audacious goals, and often it causes us to do things
Jordan Grumet:we don't enjoy the process of doing. Let me talk about
Jordan Grumet:podcasting. I love podcasting. I'm a podcaster. When I podcast,
Jordan Grumet:it is little P purpose for me, which means I love doing it. I
Jordan Grumet:get in front of the mic and I interview someone, and that hour
Jordan Grumet:is the best time of my life, even if no one ever hears that
Jordan Grumet:episode. It was so worth it because I enjoyed the process of
Jordan Grumet:doing it. But I could decide that I want a million downloads
Jordan Grumet:a month, and that could be my big audacious goal. But here's
Jordan Grumet:the problem, in order to get there, I'm going to have to do
Jordan Grumet:some work, and part of that work is going to be things I really
Jordan Grumet:hate doing, like I don't like making Tiktok reels, I don't
Jordan Grumet:like being on Instagram, but if I really want to get those
Jordan Grumet:million views, I'm going to have to do that. So what I'm going to
Jordan Grumet:do is I'm going to spend all my time doing things I don't like
Jordan Grumet:85 90% of my time so that I can reach that goal, which I'm happy
Jordan Grumet:with for about 5% of the time. And then I habituate back to my
Jordan Grumet:regular level of happiness. And then I gotta double down and go
Jordan Grumet:after 2 million and then I'm back to doing things I don't
Jordan Grumet:like doing. You can have big, audacious goals, but when you
Jordan Grumet:pursue little P purpose, you are goal agnostic. What does that
Jordan Grumet:mean? So I can love podcasting, and I can decide that a million
Jordan Grumet:downloads a month is my big, audacious goal, but it's still
Jordan Grumet:little P purpose, because guess what? If I get there, great. If
Jordan Grumet:I don't get there, great, because I'm still doing
Jordan Grumet:something I love doing. It only becomes big P purpose when you
Jordan Grumet:start changing what you're doing to things you don't enjoy the
Jordan Grumet:process of doing, and that's where we go wrong.
Gary Michels:But is there a middle ground a little bit?
Jordan Grumet:Here's where I run into problems. So I am a
Jordan Grumet:doctor, right? Which means I've been surrounded by achievement
Jordan Grumet:junkies my whole life. And so a lot of people make that
Jordan Grumet:argument. It's like, well, I like achieving. I want to change
Jordan Grumet:the world. What's wrong with a little big, audacious purpose,
Jordan Grumet:like, I want to be driven to do these big, awesome things. I
Jordan Grumet:mean, that's how we kill it, right? You do all these big
Jordan Grumet:dozen things. Here's what I generally found, and it actually
Jordan Grumet:has to do with the difference between meaning and purpose. And
Jordan Grumet:so I think happiness is meaning and purpose. You need both. A
Jordan Grumet:lot of people look at me and go, well. Are crazy. Meaning and
Jordan Grumet:purpose are the same thing. Here's where I think they're
Jordan Grumet:different and why it's important. Meaning is about our
Jordan Grumet:past and it's all about our thoughts. It's the stories we
Jordan Grumet:tell ourselves about ourselves, and it's generally a journey to
Jordan Grumet:enough. What I mean is happy people tend to tell themselves
Jordan Grumet:heroic stories about their past. They see the past, they realize
Jordan Grumet:there was hardship and trauma and difficulty, but they were
Jordan Grumet:able to get through it, and that's why they are where they
Jordan Grumet:are today. And then they look at the present future and say,
Jordan Grumet:Well, I was able to get through in the past, so I'm going to do
Jordan Grumet:well in the present future. They feel like they're enough on the
Jordan Grumet:inside, and so they'll continue to be enough. Unhappy. People
Jordan Grumet:tend to tell themselves a victim story about the past. The story
Jordan Grumet:they tell about their past is, I had these traumas, I had these
Jordan Grumet:problems, and I was thwarted, and so when you get to the
Jordan Grumet:present, they still feel thwarted, and they feel they'll
Jordan Grumet:be thwarted in the present and future. So they never feel like
Jordan Grumet:they made it to enough. Purpose is very different from meaning.
Jordan Grumet:It's not about your thoughts and it's not about your past. It's
Jordan Grumet:about your present and future, and it's all about actions. It's
Jordan Grumet:doing the things that light us up. Here's where people go
Jordan Grumet:wrong. They go wrong when they don't have a good sense of
Jordan Grumet:meaning and they don't feel enough. And so instead of going
Jordan Grumet:back and dealing with that not feeling enough, they try to
Jordan Grumet:purpose their way to enough, or purpose their way to happiness.
Jordan Grumet:How do they do that? They set a bunch of big, audacious goals,
Jordan Grumet:and they convince themselves, if they just reach those goals,
Jordan Grumet:they're going to be happy. I call this the achievement
Jordan Grumet:treadmill. It's those people who keep on running on the
Jordan Grumet:treadmill, getting achievement after achievement, and they
Jordan Grumet:still think they're going to make them happy, and they don't,
Jordan Grumet:and they have to go to the next big, audacious goal to get
Jordan Grumet:there. Steve Jobs and Elon Musk. These are two people who've
Jordan Grumet:achieved almost everything. They've made almost all the
Jordan Grumet:money there is to make in the world, and both of them have
Jordan Grumet:looked mostly miserable most of their lives. The reason is, I
Jordan Grumet:believe, is they have an issue of meaning. Steve Jobs was
Jordan Grumet:adopted, and it's been well documented that he never came to
Jordan Grumet:terms with this idea, that he never felt he was enough through
Jordan Grumet:his adoption issues, and he kept on trying to prove himself
Jordan Grumet:through creating all this amazing stuff. Elon Musk
Jordan Grumet:suffered issues with his dad and got teased as a kid. I think a
Jordan Grumet:lot of this is a meaning problem. So what's wrong with
Jordan Grumet:the big, audacious goals and pushing ourselves to achieve
Jordan Grumet:more? I think we're trying to prove our enoughness, and you
Jordan Grumet:could be as successful as Elon Musk and Steve Jobs, and it
Jordan Grumet:still won't make you actually happy. It'll just make you
Jordan Grumet:double down and want to reach the next thing. And so that's my
Jordan Grumet:problem, being two achievement and big P purpose oriented is a
Jordan Grumet:lot of people are trying to prove their enoughness with it,
Jordan Grumet:and it just doesn't work. The way you prove you're enough is
Jordan Grumet:to go back and deal with meaning, not necessarily. Can't
Jordan Grumet:purpose your way there. And so I think you set yourself up to be
Jordan Grumet:a little bit unhappy as long as you're enjoying what you're
Jordan Grumet:doing, that's fine.
Gary Michels:I know that purpose is a big part of
Gary Michels:hospice. So you say that up to 91% of us are impacted by
Gary Michels:purpose anxiety. Where did that number come from, and what led
Gary Michels:to 91%?
Jordan Grumet:So Larissa Rainey is a researcher who basically
Jordan Grumet:did one of the Sentinel papers on purpose anxiety. Back, I
Jordan Grumet:think it was in 2012 or maybe 2014 and so she was the one who
Jordan Grumet:conducted the research that showed that up to 91% of people
Jordan Grumet:at some point in their life have had purpose anxiety. So why
Jordan Grumet:purpose anxiety? Because most people are trying to find their
Jordan Grumet:purpose, and you don't really find purpose. You build it, but
Jordan Grumet:you do have to decide what to build purpose around. And most
Jordan Grumet:of us, because of social media, because of society, we're trying
Jordan Grumet:to build purpose around these really big, goal oriented,
Jordan Grumet:difficult things to pursue. And so we feel lots of anxiety,
Jordan Grumet:because a lot of times we set the goal so high we can't reach
Jordan Grumet:it, and a lot of times we find ourselves doing things we don't
Gary Michels:What is the purpose paradox?
Gary Michels:like in service of these goals that we either do or don't meet,
Jordan Grumet:Well, that's the paradox. So if you look at the
Jordan Grumet:data, pursuing a version of purpose in life, if you look at
Jordan Grumet:but you kind of lost already if you don't enjoy what you're
Jordan Grumet:all the studies, is associated with health, happiness and
Jordan Grumet:longevity, I mean, you do so much better if you have a sense
Jordan Grumet:doing in service of that goal, at least on a regular basis. And
Jordan Grumet:of purpose in your life. And there are tons of studies that
Jordan Grumet:show this, but then there are other other studies that show
Jordan Grumet:so that's why there's so much purpose anxiety, is because a
Jordan Grumet:that up to 91% of people have purpose anxieties. The question
Jordan Grumet:is, how can it be like both the most nourishing thing that gives
Jordan Grumet:lot of times, really, all these forces are pushing us to do
Jordan Grumet:us the health, happiness and longevity, but also the most
Jordan Grumet:frustrating thing that gives us all the anxiety? What I believe
Jordan Grumet:stuff that probably doesn't light us up, that probably isn't
Jordan Grumet:is we get purpose wrong. We think it's only one thing, but
Jordan Grumet:it's actually two things, and one of those things is healthy
Jordan Grumet:unique to us, but it's some version of either what society
Jordan Grumet:for you, and one of them isn't. That's that differentiation.
Jordan Grumet:Little P purpose is probably what's associated with all those
Jordan Grumet:is trying to tell us or what society is trying to sell us.
Jordan Grumet:good things, and big P purpose is probably what's more
Jordan Grumet:associated with the anxiety and stress.
Gary Michels:I got it. Now, how are purpose and legacy
Gary Michels:connected? Because I know when you're with these people in
Gary Michels:hospice, I'm sure things come up, what they want to leave
Gary Michels:behind, not just money wise, but memories and thoughts and
Gary Michels:relationships. How are they connected?
Jordan Grumet:Well, here's the thing, most people think the way
Jordan Grumet:to have impact in legacy is big P big audacious purposes, like
Jordan Grumet:I'm going to, you know, solve cancer, or I'm going to travel
Jordan Grumet:to Mars, or I'm going to become a president, and those are the
Jordan Grumet:things that are going to give them this lasting impact and
Jordan Grumet:legacy. I actually argue the exact opposite. It's little
Jordan Grumet:people purpose doing things that light us up, that actually
Jordan Grumet:connect us to other people. I'm not worried about a financial
Jordan Grumet:legacy. That's just a financial plan. I'm looking at leaving a
Jordan Grumet:part of yourself that exists even after you've left this
Jordan Grumet:world. So I always give the example, actually, of my
Jordan Grumet:maternal grandfather. My maternal grandfather was born
Jordan Grumet:and lived throughout the mid 1900s he, in fact, died in the
Jordan Grumet:1960s so I was born in 1973 I never even met him, but he had a
Jordan Grumet:version of purpose that was very much little P purpose. He loved
Jordan Grumet:math, not because he could make a living at it, not because it
Jordan Grumet:was going to change the world. He loved it, because he just
Jordan Grumet:loved it. So back in the 1950s when my mom was a little girl,
Jordan Grumet:she'd sit on his lab and he would show her all his
Jordan Grumet:spreadsheets where he was writing in all the numbers in
Jordan Grumet:the boxes, and he was lit up and excited about this. So my mom
Jordan Grumet:did what kids do is she tried on that identity. She's like, Well,
Jordan Grumet:my dad loves this. Maybe this fits me. She found it did, and
Jordan Grumet:she eventually became a CPA just like him. Here's where the magic
Jordan Grumet:comes in. When I was a little kid, I had a learning disability
Jordan Grumet:and couldn't read. And in fact, while all my friends were on
Jordan Grumet:their basic readers, I was pretty much coloring with a
Jordan Grumet:crayon in a drawing book. Basically, I wasn't making any
Jordan Grumet:headway. I would have thought I was lost, except I was really
Jordan Grumet:good at math. In fact, I was at the top of my class at math,
Jordan Grumet:because, like my mother, I had taken on some of that identity
Jordan Grumet:because I saw that she loved it. It was her purpose. I thought
Jordan Grumet:this is something I could do too. I eventually got over my
Jordan Grumet:learning disability. I became a doctor, and in my early days as
Jordan Grumet:a doctor, I had a patient who came into the hospital, a young
Jordan Grumet:guy who kept on getting admitted almost near death with
Jordan Grumet:dehydration. Because I loved math, I happened to notice a
Jordan Grumet:connection between two of his lab results, and we diagnosed
Jordan Grumet:him with a rare disease. That rare disease we treated with a
Jordan Grumet:simple medicine. And guess what happened? He was a pastor at a
Jordan Grumet:church, and he took in homeless kids and would give them
Jordan Grumet:shelter, connect them to social services, all those kind of
Jordan Grumet:things. So let's think about this, my maternal grandfather,
Jordan Grumet:who died in the 1960s because of his love of math, like a pebble
Jordan Grumet:dropped in the ocean, it displaced a touch of water, and
Jordan Grumet:that water formed waves that added to other waves at times to
Jordan Grumet:become big and mighty and got smaller at other times and
Jordan Grumet:dissipated. But over 60 years, it's still landing on beaches
Jordan Grumet:hundreds of miles away. His life had impact. It had legacy. Part
Jordan Grumet:of him still exists because of what he loved, and I think
Jordan Grumet:that's a lot more attainable for people than to worry about all
Jordan Grumet:these big, audacious things they're gonna do, which they may
Jordan Grumet:or may not succeed at.
Gary Michels:What does legacy mean to you in general?
Jordan Grumet:I think it's the piece of you that you leave
Jordan Grumet:behind once you're gone, and so there's a touch of that that's
Jordan Grumet:financial, right? You leave money, and that helps your kids
Jordan Grumet:and grandkids, etc. But a lot of it are those things you loved
Jordan Grumet:that you modeled for your family and touched their lives, and you
Jordan Grumet:gave them permission to maybe seek out the same things, maybe
Jordan Grumet:to do their own things. But we see this all the time, like in a
Jordan Grumet:grandchild or a great grandchild, someone who has a
Jordan Grumet:love of music that their great grandparent had, someone who
Jordan Grumet:walks or has the mannerisms that their grandfather had. These are
Jordan Grumet:parts of our legacy. It's the part of us that we pass along.
Jordan Grumet:And the beautiful thing about that is your money will
Jordan Grumet:disappear, and even the fantastic achievements you did
Jordan Grumet:will probably disappear, but won't. What won't disappear
Jordan Grumet:those pieces of yourself that you pass on. And so I think
Jordan Grumet:that's legacy.
Gary Michels:Now you've spoken with countless patients on their
Gary Michels:deathbeds about their lives, their regrets, and what they
Gary Michels:hope their legacy will be. Are there any stories in particular
Gary Michels:that you felt were impactful to you or might be impactful to our
Gary Michels:listeners that you'd like to share?
Jordan Grumet:There are so many, it's hard to separate. And
Jordan Grumet:what binds them all is people who either did the things that
Jordan Grumet:were important to them, so they kind of died peacefully, or the
Jordan Grumet:people who never addressed those things. And so I had to
Jordan Grumet:reconcile that at the end of life. And so one story I
Jordan Grumet:actually tell about so I just wrote a book called The purpose
Jordan Grumet:code. It's all about purpose. But in my first book taking
Jordan Grumet:stock, I actually tell a story which still is very profound to
Jordan Grumet:me today. I took care of a patient who back when he was in
Jordan Grumet:his 20s, he had this dream, and the dream was to hike Mount
Jordan Grumet:Everest. He wanted to climb Mount Everest, and he was in the
Jordan Grumet:middle of a corporate career, and he was doing really, really
Jordan Grumet:well, and he was moving up. And he decided in his early 20s to
Jordan Grumet:take a year off, which everyone told him he shouldn't do, to
Jordan Grumet:train and then to go climb Mount Everest. And so he did that. He
Jordan Grumet:trained. He went to climb Mount Everest. They made it past base
Jordan Grumet:camp. The weather change. First. He eventually had to come back
Jordan Grumet:down. They never made it to the top. He ran out of time. He went
Jordan Grumet:back to working. I met him in his 40s when he was dying of
Jordan Grumet:leukemia, and all he wanted to talk about was his time on Mount
Jordan Grumet:Everest. All he wanted to talk about was what it felt like to
Jordan Grumet:be out there trying to climb this fantastic mountain. He
Jordan Grumet:didn't complain that he failed, right? He ultimately didn't make
Jordan Grumet:it. But what he really regaled us with was this idea that he
Jordan Grumet:had the courage to do this thing that was deeply important to him
Jordan Grumet:and that really had an impact on me. Doesn't matter if you
Jordan Grumet:succeed or fail, but one day, you're going to die and you're
Jordan Grumet:going to look back and say, did I do those things that were
Jordan Grumet:deeply important to me, or did I put them off? So he failed the
Jordan Grumet:big, audacious goal of getting to the top, but he loved the
Jordan Grumet:process, and that's all that mattered, right, right? And so
Jordan Grumet:he could have, back in his 20s, he could have said, You know
Jordan Grumet:what, everyone's right, I should stick to my career. I'm gonna
Jordan Grumet:keep moving up. I'll get to it later. Well, the poor guy died
Jordan Grumet:in his 40s. There never may have been a later.
Gary Michels:What is a hospice life review and how can it help
Gary Michels:anyone at any age live a more purposeful life?
Jordan Grumet:So, a hospice life review is something we do
Jordan Grumet:with patients after they come on hospice, and we get them
Jordan Grumet:comfortable, and we make sure they're dying the place they
Jordan Grumet:want to, whether that's a nursing home or the hospital at
Jordan Grumet:home. A lot of times a doctor or social worker or nurse or a
Jordan Grumet:chaplain will do something called a life review. It's a
Jordan Grumet:series of structured questions where we ask them about their
Jordan Grumet:lives, what were the most important moments, what were
Jordan Grumet:their biggest successes, what were their biggest failures? And
Jordan Grumet:the one I specifically want to focus on is, what are their
Jordan Grumet:regrets? And so this is an attempt to help reconcile their
Jordan Grumet:life, even though they don't have the agency to change things
Jordan Grumet:anymore, right? They're not going to go back and climb Mount
Jordan Grumet:Everest if they didn't do it, they didn't do it. But here's
Jordan Grumet:where the magic comes in. What if we take that knowledge and
Jordan Grumet:bring it to young people and other people who aren't dying?
Jordan Grumet:What if we ask them that big question, if you found out you
Jordan Grumet:were going to die next week, what would you regret that you
Jordan Grumet:never had the energy, courage or time to do? And once you figure
Jordan Grumet:out what those regrets are, let's turn those into what I
Jordan Grumet:call purpose anchors. Those are inklings of something that could
Jordan Grumet:be purposeful. And then let's build a life of purpose around
Jordan Grumet:them. Let me give you a great example. I came to the
Jordan Grumet:conclusion about 10 years ago that if I didn't traditionally
Jordan Grumet:publish a book and I died, I would always regret that I never
Jordan Grumet:tried. And so for me, that was something I could turn from a
Jordan Grumet:regret into a purpose anchor. And so I started building a life
Jordan Grumet:of purpose around that, and eventually wrote my first book,
Jordan Grumet:taking stock. And so I think this idea of using regrets to
Jordan Grumet:our benefit is something that we all should be doing. Take a
Jordan Grumet:lesson from the dying. Let's start thinking about it a lot
Jordan Grumet:earlier, though.
Gary Michels:Yeah, I love that. What are a few tactical tips for
Gary Michels:setting up a lasting, positive legacy?
Jordan Grumet:The tips are to start thinking about purpose
Jordan Grumet:now. Little P purpose, what you like the process of doing, and
Jordan Grumet:start building a life around it. And so what I always get all the
Jordan Grumet:time, as people say to me, Well, that's easy, you know, just find
Jordan Grumet:your purpose. And they say, but I don't know how to find my
Jordan Grumet:purpose. I've been trying forever. And so what I always
Jordan Grumet:say is, you don't find your purpose. You build it. But it is
Jordan Grumet:true, you need these Inklings, these beckonings, these purpose
Jordan Grumet:anchors, to start building a life of purpose around. So it is
Jordan Grumet:true, there's some ways to start thinking about purpose anchors.
Jordan Grumet:We just talked about one, which is the life review and the
Jordan Grumet:regret question, that's a great way to start think about what
Jordan Grumet:you'd regret if you were dying. And let's turn that into a
Jordan Grumet:purpose anchor, another easy way. I won't go through all of
Jordan Grumet:them, but another easy way to start thinking about purpose
Jordan Grumet:anchors. Think about your joys of childhood like, what did you
Jordan Grumet:love when you were a kid? A lot of times, as we get older, we
Jordan Grumet:start focusing on school and we drop all those things that feel
Jordan Grumet:purposeful to us. So what were the posters? What were the
Jordan Grumet:drawings? What were the metals you had in your childhood room?
Jordan Grumet:Could those be some purpose anchors last but not least, and
Jordan Grumet:I described this with my career. If you subtracted everything you
Jordan Grumet:didn't like about your career, what would be left when I
Jordan Grumet:subtracted everything I didn't like about being a doctor, I
Jordan Grumet:found a purpose anchor, which was hospice work. And so those
Jordan Grumet:are some real constructive ways to start building purpose
Jordan Grumet:anchors so that you can then start creating the life you want
Jordan Grumet:to live full of purpose.
Gary Michels:Couple of last questions for you; what legacy
Gary Michels:do you hope to leave behind for your work and the patients that
Gary Michels:you serve?
Jordan Grumet:I'll tell you that that's an interesting
Jordan Grumet:question, because I don't really plan to leave a legacy in the
Jordan Grumet:people I serve. In fact, I don't even want them to know my name.
Jordan Grumet:I want to be behind the scenes, helping the nurses and chaplains
Jordan Grumet:and so social workers take care of them. So my job as a hospice
Jordan Grumet:doctor is actually really easy. It's the nurses, the chaplains,
Jordan Grumet:the social workers and the certified nursing assistants who
Jordan Grumet:are doing all the difficult, hands on care. So the legacy
Jordan Grumet:through hospice is to pretty much say, Look, everyone asks
Jordan Grumet:me, how do I have a good death? I mean, I get that all the time,
Jordan Grumet:especially young people, like you're a hospice doctor, you
Jordan Grumet:know, how do I assure that I have a good death? And I always
Jordan Grumet:tell people, you tend to die the way you live. And so if you
Jordan Grumet:lived a good, happy life, you're gonna have a good, happy death.
Jordan Grumet:And if you lived an anxiety filled unhappy life, you're
Jordan Grumet:probably gonna have an unhappy death. So the way to have a good
Jordan Grumet:death is to have a good life. And so the way to have. A good
Jordan Grumet:life is to start thinking about these really important things
Jordan Grumet:now, and that gets back to purpose. The legacy for the kids
Jordan Grumet:is much easier, right? So for my kids, my legacy is to model a
Jordan Grumet:deeply engaged adult who's pursuing really purposeful
Jordan Grumet:activities, because I want them to have that model so they can
Jordan Grumet:go and pursue their own purposeful, light filled life.
Jordan Grumet:And so that's really the legacy I want for them. Is I want them
Jordan Grumet:to see me so deeply engaged in my life that they build a life
Jordan Grumet:exactly the same for themselves, so they feel all that kind of
Jordan Grumet:same joy and fulfillment that I've spent, you know, a good 50
Jordan Grumet:years trying to get to.
Gary Michels:Awesome. I love it. So if someone wanted to get
Gary Michels:in touch with you, get your book, have you help them in any
Gary Michels:part of their lives, how would they reach you?
Jordan Grumet:So the best way is to go to JordanGrumet.com
Jordan Grumet:that's J O R, D, A N, G, R, U, m, e, t.com, there you can see
Jordan Grumet:links to both of my books Taking Stock and The Purpose Code, as
Jordan Grumet:well as all the places I create content. The two main ones right
Jordan Grumet:now are the earned and invest podcast as well as the purpose
Jordan Grumet:code, sub stack. You can get all of that at JordanGrumet.com.
Gary Michels:Awesome. Well, I thank you for spending time with
Gary Michels:us today. It was a great discussion, and it got me
Gary Michels:thinking. Thank you so much.
Jordan Grumet:Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.