Episode 48

full
Published on:

3rd Jul 2024

Luck and Power, with Garrett Neiman

Garrett Neiman, serial nonprofit entrepreneur, activist, founding CEO of CollegeSpring, co-creator of Liberation Ventures, and Senior Fellow at Prosperity Now, walks listeners through the issues of race and wealth discussed in his book, "RICH WHITE MEN: What It Takes to Uproot the Old Boys’ Club and Transform America", including the relationship between luck and power, "compounding unearned advantage", how America is a country of opposites on social issues, figuring out exactly how much is enough, and the "7 generations principle" of leaving a legacy.

Transcript
Gary Michels:

Welcome to Let's Talk Legacy. I'm your host Gary

Gary Michels:

Michels. Today our guest is awesome. Garrett Neiman is a

Gary Michels:

serial nonprofit entrepreneur, and activist, founding CEO at

Gary Michels:

college spring, co creator of liberation ventures and senior

Gary Michels:

fellow at prosperity now, he is also the author of the new book

Gary Michels:

Rich White Men: what it takes to uproot the old boys club and

Gary Michels:

transform America. So welcome to the show.

Garrett Neiman:

I appreciate it. Gary, thank you so much for

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having me.

Gary Michels:

Let's dig right into some questions and have a

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really healthy conversation here. We're going to talk about

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a few things today that for many of our listeners play major

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roles in shaping a legacy, which is what our shows about, and

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those are race and wealth. You're dedicated your career to

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helping the rich give their money away to social justice

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causes. But I want to start with the hard question. A lot of

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listeners might be thinking, you are a successful white man. So

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what qualifies you to speak objectively on things like

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inequity and privilege and give us your background?

Garrett Neiman:

Yeah, absolutely happy to share a little bit of

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my journey. And I think the way I think about it is that really

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none of us are positioned to objectively speak about really

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anything, including social justice issues that I take, what

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I have to offer is my own lived experience and path and take

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what feels helpful or useful in your own life and let the rest

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go. The connection to legacy for me runs pretty deep, because I

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grew up in Orange County, California, the white affluent

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suburb, but then when I was six, my younger brother died in the

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accident, completely turned my family's whole life upside down.

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And I think going through that experience, it just really

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helped me see how life can be short and fragile. And, you

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know, basically, as long as I can remember, I've tried to live

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a life that's meaningful and aligned with values and so

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forth. You know, so for me, you know, the the main way that

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manifested is entering the nonprofit sector mice. My

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sister's adopted from China, I raised money for her former

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orphanage when I was in high school. And then when I went to

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college at Stanford, I started college spring, which is a

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national college access nonprofit, helping low income

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students of color prepare for the SATs, and become the first

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in their families to go to college. And, you know, we

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served about 20,000 students during my tenure raise $15

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million, got recognized by the Obama White House. So on the one

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hand, it was this big success. But on the other hand, that

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decade of work really helped me see how programs like ours,

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frankly, we're really ill equipped to address the deep

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systemic barriers that students of color and high poverty

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communities faced. And so I've been on a journey since to

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really try to understand the root causes of inequality, how

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they can be addressed. And also, you know, what is my role in the

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work as a white man, and particularly a straight able

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bodied white man who grew up in a wealthy family and attended

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private schools that I think there's a real desire among many

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people who share my background to contribute. But I think

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there's really, particularly in this moment, a lack of clarity

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about what that role can look like.

Gary Michels:

So you say that people at the top, often rich

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white men, too often are preserving their wealth over

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generations using what you call compounding unearned advantage.

Gary Michels:

So what is compounding unearned advantage?

Garrett Neiman:

Unearned advantage is simply a way of

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saying that, you know, those of us who have advantaged identity

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markers like growing up in a wealthy family or growing up

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white, growing up male and so forth, that does lead to some

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unearned advantages in our lives and compounded unearned

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advantage as a way of talking about how when those show up

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sequentially through our experiences, it's a way that

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those advantages actually compound you know that there's

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studies that show that white teachers believe white students

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are higher potential. There's evidence now that parents school

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more often is my son gifted than is my daughter gifted and

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certainly, you know, if you go to school in an affluent

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community, teachers have more time to advocate for their

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students. In affluent families, parents have more time to

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advocate for their children, you know, so there's all these ways

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where these seemingly subtle compounding unearned advantage

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is really a way of talking to folks who understand how

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compound interest works, you know that if a slightly higher

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annual return adds up to a lot exponentially over time. The

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same thing can be true for our identity based unearned

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advantages that seemingly small unearned advantages can really

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shift trajectories and produce large societal disparities.

Gary Michels:

What exactly is the problem was someone wanting

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to preserve their wealth for future generations, especially

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within their own family?

Garrett Neiman:

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I

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think in a certain sense, there isn't a problem and I think In

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particular, it's very rational, the way that our society is

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currently structured that in by inequality societies, there's a

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real hunger to want to cling to whatever rung you're on like

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that, if you imagine just sort of a ladder, you know that in a

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high inequality society, the gaps between the rungs are

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pretty large, that there's major differences in quality of life,

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if you fall down a rung on that on the ladder, and, you know, in

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America, we don't have too much of a safety net, you know, so,

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you know, if you're at the very bottom of that ladder and let

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go, you know, you don't land in a safety net, you land in

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something that's more like a fiery pit, which nobody wants.

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The challenge with that is that from a societal perspective,

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that leads to a system that basically stays the way it is.

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And so what I've become interested in is, what does it

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look like to produce a society where there's less inequality,

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and we don't have to be so anxious and scared about where

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exactly we fall on the ladder that I think about things like

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the college admissions craziness these days to try to get into an

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elite university. You know, that only happens in a society where,

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you know, going to a Stanford or Harvard or Yale means you could

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become a billionaire and the society were going graduating

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from community college or state university doesn't guarantee a

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living wage. You know, that's where those high stakes come

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from. So what does it look like to protect ourselves and our

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families against risks of the society as it is, but also how

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do we protect against the risk of a society that stays like it

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is?

Gary Michels:

What would that look like for you, if the United

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States invested in these people more than they are now for? You

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could say, we actually are a society that does do this.

Garrett Neiman:

So I think there's there's different ways

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of looking at this. But I think at a, you know, a very basic

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level, I think about you know, how many, you know, how many

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Einsteins, how many steve jobs are out there who are societies

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is not not investing in. And if you're if you're in a situation

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where you're focused on your day to day survival, you know, just

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trying to pay your rent check, or, you know, pay the bills, you

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know, that you're not going to be able to invest in your your

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talents and gifts and unique capabilities and skills. And so,

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you know, what does it look like to create a society that offers

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that for more people? And I think that what I'm very

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interested in is what does it look like to invest in every

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community in America so that every person can have

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opportunities like I had growing up?

Gary Michels:

What would be some of those opportunities? What

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does that look like for the government to really give more?

Garrett Neiman:

The approach I've become particularly

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interested in just because I think it's simple, is direct

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cash transfers to folks. And that can be on an income basis,

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you know, that you may have come across ideas like the universal

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basic income. You know, other folks have talked about things

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like a universal basic capital, or things like baby bonds that

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are basically a trust fund that matures over a low wealth

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child's lifetime, and enables him to pay for college or a down

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payment, or whatever it may be that wealth inequality is so

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high in American society that we're leaving a lot on the

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table, by enabling things to continue down that path. So just

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as one concrete example, you know, Larry Page and Sergey

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Brin, the co founder, co founders of Google, have a

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combined wealth of about $200 billion. Larry and Sergey have

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enough money to create an endowment that provides $100,000

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guaranteed income to everyone in San Francisco who lives in

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poverty. Plus, they have enough money to provide a million

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dollars in reparations to every black family that's been locked

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out of intergenerational wealth in San Francisco, and they would

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have something like $70 billion leftover at the end of that, you

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know whether or not you agree with those specific policies, we

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have a lot of resources locked up in vaults of the very, very

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few. And if those resources were invested in marginalized

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communities that have historically been locked out of

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wealth, building opportunities, that would make an enormous

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difference. And there's efforts now like the mayors for a

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guaranteed income that over I think over 100 mayors have

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signed on to now to run these pilots in their communities. And

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what they're finding is, you know, when people who don't have

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well have an extra 500 bucks a month, 1000 bucks a month, you

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know, they're able to make better decisions, decisions that

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better suit them for the long term, that the same way that a

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cash strapped business is going to have a hard time focusing for

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the long term. You know, the same thing is true for families

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that don't have well so you know, families that get these

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stipends are able to do things like take a day off and

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interview for another job that pays better and is a better fit

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for their skills or, you know, to invest in continuing

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education or whatever it may be that there's all of these

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different opportunities that are available to Folks once there

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once they're not quite so cash strapped.

Gary Michels:

Got it. That's big. But let's talk a little bit

Gary Michels:

about what you kind of explained as an interesting relationship

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between luck and power. Can you talk to that a little bit?

Garrett Neiman:

This was one of the more interesting aspects of,

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of my journey into this is that I think luck is often maybe not

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always, but I think most of the time, good luck has something to

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do with a powerful person making a decision that benefits us, you

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know, things that felt like serendipity, you know, that

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there really is a component of power attached to it.

Gary Michels:

So what's your definition of luck?

Garrett Neiman:

For the most part, I think luck is when a

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powerful person, usually a rich white man makes a decision that

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benefits us.

Gary Michels:

This is my definition. I'd like to hear

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what your thoughts are on it. Luck is where preparation meets

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opportunity. Do you think that just because a person maybe as

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at a lower economic level or lower status level, they should

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still be able to be given privileges? If they haven't put

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the work in the preparation? Are they still entitled? Because

Gary Michels:

that's not healthy for the society either.

Garrett Neiman:

Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good

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question. And I liked your definition of luck. And maybe

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it's even better than my definition. I've heard this one

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before. And I think, yes, the preparation matters. And that

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preparation doesn't necessarily yield the same things for

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everybody. And I think about, you know, my great grandfather,

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for example, who emigrated to the US he does escaped

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persecution as a Jew from the Russian Tsar, you know, and he,

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he worked in the steel mills in Ohio as a 12 year old, you know,

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eventually found his way to Saudi to business that he ended

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up buying and running epicbot plant that was the family's

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business that eventually led to real estate being acquired that

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provided the foundation of wealth for my family, you know,

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so, you know, he's somebody who, you know, when you talk about

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preparation meets opportunity, I mean, worked incredibly hard,

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incredibly, intentionally, to access opportunity. And there's,

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there's this complexity where, you know, the real estate he

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bought, for example, was in red line communities that were only

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available to white folks, you know, so it's this weird thing,

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where, for me to talk as if my great grandfather who worked in

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the steel mills as a 12 year old, you know, to say that, Oh,

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you know, like, he is so privileged. I mean, he faced a

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lot of obstacles, you know, but then it's still the case that,

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you know, that that hard work, and resourcefulness yielded

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something different for him than it might have for somebody else.

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And that's, that's the big complexity, and red all we have

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in our society is that it really is both that are showing up in

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the outcomes people get.

Gary Michels:

That makes sense. Now, surely, the problem can't

Gary Michels:

be exclusively limited to white men, there must be some examples

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of wealthy woman using compounding unearned advantage

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or wealthy individuals of other races. What does the research

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show? Do you have any statistics that can illustrate the

Gary Michels:

imbalance a little bit?

Garrett Neiman:

Yeah, and like we were talking about earlier,

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like, it's some of both here. Like, I don't want to say that,

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you know, there aren't any wealthy white women who, you

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know, are quite advantaged in our system. And, you know, like,

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even for me is, you know, like, as a Jewish person, you know,

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that, like, there's still anti semitism in the US, you know, so

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like you for me, you know, that it's not that I'm the most

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advantaged person in all of America, you know, I think the

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way I've come to see it is, you know, that I can acknowledge

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that, overall, the system favors me, you know, even if it doesn't

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favor me, absolutely. In every situation, you know, more than

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any other person on the planet. And so, you know, like, very

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wealthy white women, you know, are in that category of highly

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advantaged folks, I chose to talk about wealthy white men in

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my work, because I feel like there's not a lot of wealthy

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white men who are willing to take that on. And what I found

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across differences is, you know, that if you're a wealthy white

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woman, you know, you still don't necessarily feel safe going for

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a run at night. Or if you're a wealthy black man, you still

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might be afraid that a cop is gonna pull up, pull you over,

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and something's gonna happen to you, you know, so there's this

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complexity where, you know, even even folks who are advantaged in

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a number of ways if you're missing even one of those

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advantaged identity markers, it's going to impact your

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experience a lot, you know, so how do we acknowledge that?

Gary Michels:

Now, we talked a little bit about these two

Gary Michels:

separate issues here race and gender and inequity in it? Is

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one posing a larger challenge than the other?

Garrett Neiman:

It's a really good question. I think the the

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best way I can think of how to describe it is, you know, when

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you look at who you know, who holds wealth and power in our

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society, you're gonna see a lot more a lot more white women in

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those positions. And then black folks, for example. And then

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also, when you look at people's political press principle, it's

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really interesting that if, if you think of, you know,

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conservative and progressive, as you know, not saying that one is

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better than the other, but that if progressive is about, you

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know, changing society dramatically, you know, and

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conservative is about conserving society the way it is, you know,

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it's interesting that, you know, white men as a group, not

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everybody, but white men, as a group are the most politically

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conservative. Black women are the most politically

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progressive, you know, so I think there's, there's something

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about, you know, how how people really vote in ways that

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suggests that in order for people from different groups to

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feel like they can succeed in America, there's different

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viewpoints about how much the society needs to change.

Gary Michels:

Is there one of these you think that's moving

Gary Michels:

quicker and gaining momentum?

Garrett Neiman:

It's so complicated, because there's

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like, there's so much, you know, moving forward and backwards all

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the time, like, and we're in a very strange time in America,

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like when you look at racial justice, for example, the

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nullification of race based affirmative action is a big step

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backward on the gender fraud, you know, that Roe versus Wade

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is seen by many as a big step backward. And then you have this

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bizarre, you know, counter reality where, you know,

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policies like reparations, you know, are gaining traction in

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California and cities like Evanston, Illinois in ways that

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have never been seen before. And I think that that's, I think

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that's one of the really interesting things about this

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country is that, you know, America is a deeply racist and

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anti racist country, it's a deeply sexist and anti sexist

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country, that it's deeply egalitarian and deeply, you

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know, struggling to be egalitarian. And so, you know, I

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think that certainly, the movement on racial justice, the

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last several years has been substantial. And I think, in

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some ways, maybe more enduring than things like me, too. But

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also, it's, it's hard to know what's going to last and, you

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know, I, part of why I'm doing the work that I'm doing it is

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with the hope that we can continue to drive some of that

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progress forward.

Gary Michels:

A lot of people nowadays like to say there's no

Gary Michels:

such thing as a good billionaire. Is that really the

Gary Michels:

case? And is that really the fault of the person themselves,

Gary Michels:

or the tax system or other systems that have been built

Gary Michels:

around them?

Garrett Neiman:

You know, I really try to focus on the

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system, not on individuals, you know, there's a lot of

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structural factors, and you know, that we live in a very

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economically segregated society, a very racially segregated

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society, all of these structural reasons, the way I think about

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it is, I really tried to step away from the notion of good or

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good or bad, I think that is, is rooted in this, you know, kind

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of deeply held view that you can be a good person or a bad

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person, you know, I feel like I'm a, I'm a good person or a

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bad person, depending on the day or depending on the moment. And

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so what I'm interested in is, you know, instead of, I guess,

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condemning people as bad, you know, what I'm very interested

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in is, how do we get more people, you know, to, to take

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more good actions, and to, to to be good, a higher percentage of

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the time. And I think that I think anybody can do that if

Garrett Neiman:

they'd make the effort.

Gary Michels:

So we have a lot of listeners who are very

Gary Michels:

successful and might find themselves in this advantaged

Gary Michels:

position you're talking about, but also are already generous.

Gary Michels:

What can people like that do to be more sympathetic to what

Gary Michels:

you're saying?

Garrett Neiman:

Yeah, I love that question. And I think

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something that I question I spend a lot of time with wealthy

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folks on in particular, is this question of, you know, how much

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money is enough? It's, it's a, it's a tricky question. Because

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what I found is, millionaires usually say, you know, that, Oh,

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Rich is the 1%, you know, and I talked to one percenters and

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they say that Rich is being a billionaire. And I talked to

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billionaires, and they say, you know, being rich is Bill Gates.

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And then if you go on the Gates Foundation website, Bill Gates

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talks about how he doesn't have as much money as some countries.

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And so, you know, there's this tendency to, you know, feel like

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the answer to that question, you know, how much is enough? That

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is, you know, always more and more and more, I think the

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reality is that that approach is actually really constraining.

Garrett Neiman:

You know, I think a lot of folks are to why they want to become

Garrett Neiman:

wealthy is to have financial independence to feel freedom.

Garrett Neiman:

And it actually doesn't necessarily, you're not

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necessarily that free if you're spending your whole life chasing

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the next dollar, while you know, your your marriage is going down

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the drain your kids aren't speaking to you, you know, that

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you're not having an impact in the community and so forth. So

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what does it look like? To really get clear on that

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question, and I found that an easier version of that question

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is, you know, do I have enough right now, you know, for folks

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who have made a good amount of money and feel like they are

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there, you know, what does it look like to consider the

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possibility of, of not accumulating for further and so

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like, I was just talking to a wealthy couple, you know, a few

Garrett Neiman:

days ago, they have about $10 million in wealth. I think, you

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know, one of them feels strongly they have enough. The other one

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is not quite so sure, you know, but the one who does feel sure,

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you know, I, I've encouraged her to think about, well, what would

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it look like to to distribute your investment returns beyond

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your living expenses next year to not get richer next year and

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make a much more substantial investment in communities? You

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know, so, you know, they hold about 10 million. I think their

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living expenses are a couple 100,000 a year, you know, and

Garrett Neiman:

they they give a little bit philanthropically, but why not

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trying to give him 300,000 This year, that it's not, you're not

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going to have less than you have before, you're just not going to

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have more? And, you know, what does it look like to play around

Garrett Neiman:

with that as an experiment? And I'm not saying that everybody

Garrett Neiman:

has to do that, or they have to do that forever? But what does

Garrett Neiman:

it look like to take a pause on it continue accumulating, live

Garrett Neiman:

life differently for a little while and see, see how it goes

Garrett Neiman:

and how it feels?

Gary Michels:

That's an interesting perspective. Let's

Gary Michels:

move into legacy a little bit. What does legacy mean to you?

Garrett Neiman:

I think for me, you know, I think of there's a

Garrett Neiman:

indigenous principle called The Seven generations principle,

Garrett Neiman:

where the way the way some of these tribes who have who have

Garrett Neiman:

this belief operate is what does it look like to make decisions

Garrett Neiman:

with an eye toward how they'll impact people, seven generations

Garrett Neiman:

out? You know, so looking out 150 years, 200 years, you know,

Garrett Neiman:

what does it look like to make decisions at an individual,

Garrett Neiman:

institutional and societal level, with that viewpoint in

Garrett Neiman:

mind, and, you know, maybe that's a little abstract, but I

Garrett Neiman:

think aspirationally that's something that I take really

Garrett Neiman:

seriously. And, you know, particularly now that I'm a dad,

Garrett Neiman:

you know, I wrestle with these questions of, you know, do I,

Garrett Neiman:

you know, do I invest in maximizing the unearned

Garrett Neiman:

advantages of my son, you know, or do I invest in building a

Garrett Neiman:

society where, you know, everybody can thrive regardless

Garrett Neiman:

of what their unearned advantages are? And I think that

Garrett Neiman:

the reality is I do some about that there's, there's ways that

Garrett Neiman:

you know, that I invest in my kid in ways that I know that not

Garrett Neiman:

everyone has the opportunity to and but I'm also trying to take

Garrett Neiman:

a less myopic view than I think some folks take and really try

Garrett Neiman:

to, you know, put significant time and attention and resources

Garrett Neiman:

into, you know, how we build a just and equitable society for

Garrett Neiman:

everybody and, you know, a society that is sustainable for

Garrett Neiman:

people and planet for the long haul. And the other thing I'll

Garrett Neiman:

say about legacy is that I didn't want to things that I've

Garrett Neiman:

looked a lot at is, you know, what do people regret on their

Garrett Neiman:

deathbeds? You know, people regret things like, I wish I

Garrett Neiman:

didn't work so hard. I wish I was there more for my family and

Garrett Neiman:

friends, I wish I had the courage to do what I wanted,

Garrett Neiman:

instead of getting caught up in those those fears. There's lots

Garrett Neiman:

of ways where societal pressure actually leads many of us maybe

Garrett Neiman:

most of us toward regret. And so what does it look like to take a

Garrett Neiman:

step back and really be intentional about, you know,

Garrett Neiman:

what are the lives that we want to have, and in particular,

Garrett Neiman:

knowing that, you know, the day to day rewards of doing

Garrett Neiman:

something like, you know, having brunch with your kid, you know,

Garrett Neiman:

that that might not generate the same, you know, hit or high as

Garrett Neiman:

you know, knocking out a work deliverable. But in the long

Garrett Neiman:

run, you know, those relationships, you know, are

Garrett Neiman:

really all that matters, you know, that the material success

Garrett Neiman:

fades. And I've never heard of anybody late in life who said,

Garrett Neiman:

Gosh, I just I wish I worked more hours spent more hours at

Garrett Neiman:

the office. And so it makes me wonder if our allocations a

Garrett Neiman:

little off in our day to day.

Gary Michels:

I hear you there, I hear you. We want to finish

Gary Michels:

this interview talking about the great work that you're doing

Gary Michels:

with college spring. Tell us a little bit about that program

Gary Michels:

and the initiative and how if people wanted to help they

Gary Michels:

could.

Garrett Neiman:

College Spring as I mentioned is a program that

Garrett Neiman:

helps low income students of color prepare for the SATs and

Garrett Neiman:

become the first in their families to go to college. It's

Garrett Neiman:

a national program based in Oakland, but I think there's

Garrett Neiman:

opportunities for folks to plug in and you know, a number of

Garrett Neiman:

cities around the country. College spring has a

Garrett Neiman:

particularly big presence in California, Detroit, a few

Garrett Neiman:

cities in Texas, but you know, has presence in other places as

Garrett Neiman:

well. College spring.org is a website their liberation

Garrett Neiman:

Ventures is focused on racial justice and repair liberation

Garrett Neiman:

ventures.or. So folks who are interested in racial justice,

Garrett Neiman:

and it really how do we repair a society that has a problematic

Garrett Neiman:

history? How do we heal as a society? Liberation Metro

Garrett Neiman:

supports grassroots organizations that are wrestling

Garrett Neiman:

with those questions and trying to drive progress? And then the

Garrett Neiman:

last thing I would say about my current work is that I'm very

Garrett Neiman:

interested then being a resource for wealthy white folks and rich

Garrett Neiman:

white men in particular who are trying to advance equity and

Garrett Neiman:

social justice and live their lives in this meaningful

Garrett Neiman:

multigenerational lens. So, Garrettneiman.com, GA R R E TT

Garrett Neiman:

neiman.com, which is the book website, there's a contact form,

Garrett Neiman:

I would love for anybody to reach out to me. And I'd be

Garrett Neiman:

happy to available to anyone personally on this podcast, who

Garrett Neiman:

wants to engage further.

Gary Michels:

Awesome. Well, Garrett, I really thank you for

Gary Michels:

your time today, you're certainly given some perspective

Gary Michels:

to people that are wealthy, you've given some perspective to

Gary Michels:

people that maybe aren't at that wealth level yet, but want to be

Gary Michels:

and how they can make a difference in this world. You

Gary Michels:

touched some different things that everybody could benefit from.

Garrett Neiman:

Yeah, I enjoyed that. Thank you, Gary. This is

Garrett Neiman:

great. And yeah, Gary, thank you for the work that you do. It's

Garrett Neiman:

it's cool that you found this way to bind you know, that when

Garrett Neiman:

people are looking at their long term decisions through life

Garrett Neiman:

insurance and so forth, that that's an avenue to having some

Garrett Neiman:

of these deeper conversations about our long term life

Garrett Neiman:

decisions. I think that's awesome. I wish more people

Garrett Neiman:

would would do that. So thank you. Appreciate it.

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About the Podcast

Let's Talk Legacy
Presented by Southwestern Legacy Insurance Group
What does it mean to build and maintain a legacy, either in business, or for your loved ones? What tools and resources are available to help? Join the discussion as host Gary Michels, along with exciting guests and real listeners just like you, tackle the answers to these questions, and learn how to grow today, for a better tomorrow.



Southwestern/Great American, Inc., dba Southwestern Family of Companies, for itself and its related entities and their assigns, reserves and retains all rights to their copyrighted materials and trademarks contained in this podcast.
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